Black History Month profile:
Dionne Gravesande
(continued)

In this second and concluding part of our interview with Dionne Gravesande, she shares more about her joys, challenges, and inspirations.

You can read part 1 of our conversation with Dionne here.

Part 2

Shanon: This is a good place to ask my next question, which is, what do you find joyful?  

Dionne: I would say that my default position is that I am glass half full. I want to see the best and be optimistic about the outcomes all the time, because I am hopeful we can do better in everything. I always think about possibilities first and then work through the challenges afterwards. What makes me joyful is being in that space of building vision and hope that benefits us as a collective. 

On a personal level, my family gives me immense hope. The love that’s felt and expressed when we come together. My family’s dispersed across the world across the Caribbean, South America, Africa and Europe. So, when we come together, it’s intentional. Sometimes a decade has gone by where children have grown up into teens and young adults. So that connection with people, connection with family, is joyful. 

At work, I find joy in belonging and being a part of movements for change. These are moments where I feel a collective movement is greater than the sum of its parts. I can contribute my gifts alongside other people’s gifts, and collectively we all can work towards tangible changes and we keep the vision alive. During my time at Christian Aid I made a connection with Reverend Jesse Jackson’s team in Chicago. I had travelled to the US with the then-Churches’ Commission for Racial Justice under the leadership of Revd Arlington Trotman. We did a fact-finding visit, across five cities, and we documented our findings in the Beneath the Surface report. Much of this visit followed in the footsteps of the Civil Rights movement and its leader Dr Martin Luther King Jr.

One of the organisations that we visited in Chicago was the Rainbow PUSH Coalition, founded by Revd Jackson. Revd Jackson spent an afternoon with the UK delegation, and the first thing he says when he comes into a room and the last thing that he says before he goes out is: keep hope alive all the time.  Courageous words of the faithful that encourages me in the most challenging times, when we have to find ways to keep hope alive. And when I find that, I’m really joyful.

Shanon: That resonates with me so much, because it can be so despairing talking and thinking about the climate crisis – but if we don’t have that joy and that hope, how are we going to make the movement work? Now I want to name drop, because I have a story about Jesse Jackson too. I used to be a journalist in Malaysia, with an independent online news outlet that is no longer in operation,The Nut Graph. We were tiny, but we punched above our weight. Once, Reverend Jackson was giving a lecture in Malaysia, and I said to my editor, I have to go there. Because of some restrictions, I couldn’t schedule anything with him beforehand, but I remember striking up a conversation with a very helpful Al Jazeera journalist who was going to interview him. I said to her, look, I’d be so happy to only have five minutes of his time. And she said, ‘Right, when my interview with him is over, I’ll introduce him to you.’ And she did! I was there waiting on the sidelines of her recorded interview, and she said as they were removing their microphones, ‘Oh, and this is my friend Shanon Shah, who is also an amazing journalist.’ I mean, I had only just met her that day. So Reverend Jackson said to me, ‘Well, walk with me. You got me until I get into my car.’ So I did. I got into the lift with him and had maybe seven minutes of his time, which for me was a huge privilege, given how tiny our website was. Even though we were a tiny outfit with very little clout compared to something like Al Jazeera, I didn’t lose hope. Instead, I forged immediate solidarity with this journalist from Al Jazeera who was going to interview Jesse Jackson, and she helped me without a second thought.  

Dionne: He’s incredibly approachable as well, right? When he came to the UK for a mass supporter day of campaign action, he joined the staff team at Christian Aid’s Interchurch House office, but due to a packed schedule of meetings, he missed lunch. So he comes out of the main doors of the Christian Aid office on Lower Marsh, and across the road is a little cafe called Marie’s Cafe. So Jesse’s like, what’s this place, let’s go over there. And it was just me and him, walking along Lower Marsh, and people are looking at him, probably thinking, is that Jesse Jackson? He then goes into the café and orders a sandwich. So the woman server prepares the sandwich, paying him no special attention. Meanwhile, everybody else in the café is taking photos. She’s just making the sandwich and she says to him, £3.50, but I realise we didn’t bring any cash. I said to him, stay here. I ran across the road to the [Christian Aid] reception to get some money and when I get back, he’s got one leg up on a chair and he’s talking to everyone in there. I had to say, I’m really sorry, he’s got an appointment now. Take your last snaps. After that, I said to him, ‘My God, you are very difficult to manage.’

Shanon: (Laughs.) Yeah, when I got to talk to him, I knew he wanted to chat, but it was his entourage who were like, ‘He’s got somewhere else to go.’ He was the one telling them, ’Let the boy talk!’ I was like, ‘Yes, let the boy talk! Let me talk to Jesse Jackson!’ Then he puts his hand on my shoulder and says, ‘Ask your questions.’ 

Dionne: The server at Marie’s Café, when people told her who he was, she wasn’t particularly moved, but one of the café regulars there developed the photo and put it up on the wall. But I’m convinced she was still probably thinking, ‘Who is this anyway? Some Black American guy?’ This is a memory I will take with me forever. 

The first thing [Reverend Jesse Jackson] says when he comes into a room and the last thing that he says before he goes out is: keep hope alive all the time.

Shanon: I love this story. Thank you for sharing it. Now I want to ask you what you find most challenging.

Dionne: It’s the slow pace of change, especially on the global climate emergency. Scientists have told us unless we do something at a pace and scale that is urgent, the future does not look good, especially for the generations to come. This is not just about things getting a bit hotter or colder. The impact is, we are talking about loss of life at a catastrophic level. So, I do find that challenging, because we don’t have time. And part of that includes keeping on with COP28, COP29, COP30, and finding other ways to keep it on the global agenda. 

The climate emergency is a matter of spiritual urgency and physical urgency. I meet too many people who have good ideas about what an alternative can look like, and they’re just not getting any oxygen at the power-holders’ table. That frustrates me.

Shanon: At the same time, you’ve got your faith that keeps you keeping on.

Dionne: Yes, my faith is anchored in Christ Jesus, and this tells me that my hope is not just mild optimism, it fuels my action. I am reminded that when human lives are treated as objects then each person loses their sacredness and become open to abuse from others. Hence, when divinity is removed from humanity, people become commodities. So I still stay glass half full because it gives me a sense of certainty in a bigger, greater scheme in which justice can and will prevail. Sometimes the progress is slow, but it is moving in the right direction. And so I have to play my part in trying to ensure that we don’t roll back on the progress that we’ve made. Faith can make a difference. But it needs to be a tangible difference. People need to be able to have something to refer to, to say this is what it was like before and this is what it is now, and we’re still on that pathway.

Shanon: I like that you said ‘tangible’. Because, for example, the healing miracles in the Gospels are tangible. Jesus heals individual people. At the same time, when he does that, he’s exposing an unjust status quo. Because who exactly does he heal? Yes, he heals people who are sick, but they’re also excluded or oppressed or stigmatised, like women who are considered unclean under patriarchal religious laws and are therefore ignored. So even a single act of healing a single individual is transformative. It’s a template for how we can have a single tangible act that seems so specific, but it is also grounded in a bigger vision of transforming the world. And this correspondence between the single act and the bigger vision is important because it gives real clarity on what is possible. 

Dionne: Inspiring stories about the works of Jesus is a powerful motivator to change culture and structures, and this type of faith can show you what the alternative looks like in real terms. My weekly work is motivated by my faith and on Sunday, I pause and often hear another message to inspire me to get up and go on for the coming week. The faith that keeps me going is the faith of doing the Monday to Saturday ministry, and Sundays I rest, reflect and prepare for work again.

Shanon: So you’re saying Sunday is the Sabbath. It’s the day of rest, so that’s your faith as rest, and Monday to Saturday, is the faith that’s work. 

Dionne: Yes, that inspires me to celebrate that Sabbath day. And celebrating the Sabbath inspires another six days of doing. There’s a lot of work to do.

I am reminded that when human lives are treated as objects then each person loses their sacredness and become open to abuse from others. Hence, when divinity is removed from humanity, people become commodities.

Shanon: We’re approaching the end of the interview, and I wondered if you wanted to share a favourite quote or a creative work that members of our network can be inspired by? I like sharing these examples, because they’re so valuable.

Dionne: Definitely. When I’m asked something like that, I say that the Black feminist space is for me a faith space as well. I always draw on the words of Audre Lorde. You might know this concept of ‘dismantling the master’s table’. When I think of this, I recognise I am a daughter of the Caribbean islands. My father was Guyanese. My mother was from the small island of Nevis, both countries were part of the British colonial empire. The first overseas l trip that I did as a young child was to Guyana. We had family living in a area called Demerara, and I remember saying, ‘That’s the name that’s on the sugar bag!’ My dad said, ‘Yes, let me tell you about that.’

As an woman of Caribbean descent whose ancestors were part of the colonial empire, the empire was built on systems of bondage. It was not just about how the British managed the islands, but how they embedded a colonial framework around white superiority, which was the thinking that my grandmother resisted. And as to Audre Lorde’s question on dismantling, it’s a question that stretches my thinking on  frameworks of liberation. Because self-perception matters, it matters how you think about yourself and how you give yourself the permission to dream and have visions of doing and being. It’s about how you value yourself against a backdrop of  of colonial rule – in my  case the British Empire – but it’s really any regime that rules over minority communities and those who are not seen by wider society.  Interesting to note, the same ones that Jesus healed who were never at the front of society and always at the back. 

Shanon: I love that quote as well – the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. And it’s not just about externalities. Because the way colonialism works is that it gets inside of you. So yes, let’s undo colonialism in all its visible manifestations. But oppression is also about limiting someone’s mind, which is what colonialism and racism do as well. They destroy your soul. They destroy your spirit.

Dionne: This is why, as an adult, I continue to think about just how courageous my own grandmother was for her era and for what she shared with me as a child. She said, ‘You’re a girl-child, it will be more difficult for you. But never let others define you or limit you.’ Racism is subtle. It is so subtle that you don’t even know it is happening to you until you start discovering that something’s just not quite right. So you start to question yourself. And in some cases, it gets worse when people question their own sanity. For example, young Black men who have gone through violence and discrimination, but did not talk about it because they didn’t recognise the trauma and do not have a safe space to work out the anger. Hence official data records disproportionate numbers of Black men and women are sectioned in mental health institutions or caught up in the criminal justice system.  

Shanon: Absolutely, because the anger goes outwards and it goes inwards as well, right?

Dionne: And then there’s denial, even of one’s own experience, and people ask, ‘What are you talking about?’ So then it becomes like you’re deluded or somehow you are imagining false feelings. And what I found quite tough to deal with is having to live and navigate my life in a discriminatory society and equipping myself with self-care tools so I could also help my daughter navigate a similar journey. I thought she wouldn’t have to unlearn as much as I had to unlearn. You’d think that. But her school experiences exposed racist assumptions and attitudes. It devastated me, because I thought I could shield her. But the reality is, racism is beyond the personal, this is a system at work. I remember, at the time, saying to a friend and academic thinker, ‘What did I not do to protect her from this?’ His response was, ‘Why do you think you could protect her? The most you can do is give her the tools to unpack and resist.’ The response caused me think about how we strengthen our resilience. 

Shanon: Which brings us back to Audre Lorde. 

Dionne: Yes, indeed. So it does make me think that you’ve got to keep reworking this stuff but ultimately, it means going further. The solution around racial justice isn’t just around what Black and Brown people are saying and doing. We need white people who also want to dismantle the system. This is a shared issue. How do we dismantle those unjust systems together and rebuild a new one? That’s our common challenge.

I continue to think about just how courageous my own grandmother was for her era and for what she shared with me as a child. She said, ‘You’re a girl-child, it will be more difficult for you. But never let others define you or limit you.’

Shanon: This is a good place for my final question, because it relates to your story about your daughter too. What advice would you give to 16-year-old Dionne?

Dionne: Your voice matters. I’ve  questioned myself on so many things, because I just didn’t have the tools to unpack or identify or describe conscious and unconscious biases. And you can’t call out what you can’t describe. You don’t know what you don’t know. But you still feel it. So I’d say that, definitely, your voice matters. 

I would say, do not shrink yourself to fit into a space that was never designed for you. I tried too hard, to fit into a different shape or space, because I thought if I did that, then I would be heard. But if that was impossible in 1984 or 1986 or 1990, it’s just as impossible today. 

I would say, ‘Do not be afraid. Be courageous.’ I was born in Northampton. And in the 1980s, I heard about the 13 Black kids in Lewisham who died in a house fire. There was going to be a big march in London, in Westminster, and there was a mini bus going from Northampton, and I said, I’m going. I didn’t ask my parents. I went and I was exposed to energy and voices that I’d never seen before, like Darcus Howe. I had no thought about the security issues connected with me being away for a whole day and not telling my parents. When I got home, my mother had called the police to say I was missing. My father was just furious. I’m sharing this story to say that there was something then that told me I needed to be in solidarity with this issue. I was outraged and it made me act. But then I came back and thought, ‘Oh, my God, I did the worst thing ever.’ I was grounded for months.

But I think back now, and I would say to that 16-year-old Dionne, ‘You were right to be courageous and to stand for something that mattered to you.’ It was the right thing then and it’s the right thing now.

Finally, I would say something about leadership. I’ve carried all sorts of titles of leadership in all sorts of things over the last 30-odd years. And I’ve learned that leadership is not about the title, it’s about service. Again, I would say so when you get offered these roles to play, it’s not about the title of the role. It is about how you serve the role that’s really important. And those things are true to me today. 

Don’t shrink yourself so that your light cannot shine. It’s been created and put in you as much as it has in anybody else. Live up to it and be courageous. 

End of Part 2 – read Part 1 here